Nobody Sits Out: A Church Where Everyone Participates
Cross-Cultural Voices
March 31, 2026
Yosef Zenebe: Most of how they learned how to preach is just through an example. Like sometimes you hear, this is how this person also preaches, and how we break down the text, and so the crash course was more like, hey, let's create a formal structure for them to understand. What we are actually doing when we're going into the scriptures.
Because you know, Ebenezer went to Northwestern, which is a Christian college, but he minored in Bible. It was mostly psychology. And me, I don't have any formal structure or like teaching. I didn't go to seminary as well. So a lot of it is just self-taught.
And so the things that we've experienced, the things that we value, the speakers that we really look up to and we've learned a lot from, we share that with them in terms of how to go about getting to a good sermon, presentation, body language, all of that.
John Yoder: Hi everybody. John Yoder here, one of the hosts of Cross-Cultural Voices. And I want to welcome you back for the final part of our interview with Pastor Yosef Zenebe of Perazim Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. If you did not listen to the first two parts, I want to encourage you to go back and listen to them.
You will find rich content on how he, as a young man, navigated the differences between American and Ethiopian cultures, and how he was part of the launch of Perazim Church that serves those who are culturally mixed.
At the end of the interview, we opened it up to people in the room to ask questions. And in this third part, you will hear the questions that they ask.
Victor Martinez: My question is that in the Latino community, we often see what you're talking about. And we planted our church out of that. I was a youth pastor for 10 years. Saw all that stuff that you're talking about. Generation just leaving the church and things like that.
But what I've noticed tis hat most of 'em go to very suburban churches, suburban pastors, suburban congregation that are well off financially. But I had also noticed that many of 'em that maybe even had a call ministry or were actively involved in their smaller immigrant churches, they go to larger churches and they no longer are involved anymore.
And I've seen that over 10 years. They're not involved at that level anymore. I'm wondering your thoughts on that and if you see that experience at your church.
Yosef Zenebe: Yeah, I think being part of like a smaller church. We actually had our admin lead go through our membership documents, and we found that 80 to 90% of the people that are members at Perazim serve in one form of ministry or another.
And so I think we try to be really intentional, like, hey, we're not just trying to have you come and just sit and not be engaged within our community. So we're very intentional. If someone wants to be a member at Perazim, you have to be serving in one form or another. You have to be plugged into the community. And that's part of the covenant.
I know a lot of churches don't do that anymore, but we have a membership covenant and that is what they're signing on. And so very early on when people are saying like, Hey I wanna be a member, I wanna be plugged in. In order for you to be in a Bible study or in a home group, you have to be a member. In order for you to serve in any capacity, you have to be a member. And so we always say like, you're a member. I'm a member before I'm a pastor. And so we hold everyone to that same standard.
And so I think, constantly creating spaces for people. What I've noticed is that actually within the second generation model, they're not attracted to the megachurches. At least from my experience, going to a church and seeing your pastor from a video camera and not someone live ,and being part of a church where the people don't know your name.
I know like they have more production heavy budgets. But I think the next generation from my experience is like looking for authenticity. They're looking for genuine relationship. They're looking for community. And so I think the smaller churches have an advantage to reach them better.
Victor Martinez: You're talking about Gen Z I guess? My experience is Millennials. Is that maybe a difference?
Yosef Zenebe: There, there is a difference. I think it depends on which range of Millennial. But I think it's similar. A lot of our congregation are in their mid twenties, and so I would, I would say like most of them are in the Gen Z phase.
Daniel Gudu: Yeah. This is Daniel. Just for those small churches who are very interested to start those new small group, do you have any group to help the small church if they invited you?
Yosef Zenebe: I think right now, we're struggling just to make it. So outside we don't really have capacity outside to be able to go to churches. But I know there are ministries I call cross-cultural ministries. I know like a lot of second gen, whether it's in Denver and Dallas, they are coaching and helping other churches.
I think one of the biggest advice that I would give for first generation churches is don't put it all on one person. I know sometimes we see one person who has like the gifting or the calling, and immediately want to make them the pastor, immediately put the weight of leadership and responsibility on them.
That can lead to fizzling out something that God is beginning. And so if you can find a team, have like various people hold different responsibilities, I think that would help flourish the young adults better. And I think the younger generation is very resourceful.
They know how to navigate, AI, ChatGPT, and find resources that really can help them. And so a lot of it is like self-starting from my experience.
Daniel Gudu: Yeah. I tell you after they start, if you give them some hint, they can do it by themselves. But at the starting, at the beginning, they need encouragement. They need someone who educates them, who leads them, who show them actively those who has experience to attract them. After that, they can come together and work together.
Yosef Zenebe: And I think it is great if they can visit churches like Perazim or other second generation churches, so that they can have a vision of, oh, there's something tangible that I can build towards.
I think if I was starting all over again, and I was like a youth seeing other leaders that have gone before and, and having examples and models. Today, second generation Ethiopian churches are popping up all over the place. You know, when Perazim first launched, I think there was maybe one or two that we saw in various states.
And, and now there, there are so many that are getting started, young adult ministries getting started. And so it's quickly multiplying.
Yiran: I see that you and Ebenezer, your good friend, started. So it is very important for you guys tohave this enthusiasm and be used by the Lord. And how did you guys get the rest of the team or leaders working together and maybe the actions steps?
Yosef Zenebe: I think when we were looking at the rest of our launch team, thank God that not everybody was called to do the same thing as us. And so we saw people that had gifting.
And I think within our teaching we taught that discipleship looks like service. And so we see people that are coming to church, but challenging people constantly through the teaching, through conversations like, man, like how are you serving the Lord? You know, like in the talents and parables, the stewardship models of God has given each of us time, talent, and treasure abilities, how are we serving the church?
This was something we were always challenged by growing up. But at the same time, we also challenge people that are coming into our community. It's great that you love the Lord and you want to read your Bible, but really challenging the next generation, like we are a body and we are members and we are a family and a family.
You know, if you come to my house and you're a guest, I might cook, my wife might cook the meal, I'm washing the dishes. We're sharing the responsibility together. But if you are a part of our family and you're in the household, you have responsibilities as well. And so if you are in the family of God and you're in the household of God, how are you serving the church?
Like Parker, for example, our media lead. It's like, oh my God, we would challenge him on like, we see these giftings and talents and abilities. In what area do you think you can serve? And I think it's really asking the questions that help people to look at themselves, look at their abilities and say like, how can I best serve?
And so we have within the second immigrant churches, a lot of people that are talented, that are going to school for so many various things. And it's like sometimes it's easy to say like, you're already going to school for finance. Why aren't you on the finance team at our church?
We see these giftings. And so I think as leaders, part of the thing that we need to be better at, and something I'm challenging myself as well is, Lord, don't just give me a good Word for preaching, but give me wisdom to identify the seeds that are in people's lives and cultivate that as well.
And so I think it's part of our job and our responsibility to look at what has God planted and for us to cultivate that in people. I think that's what makes for a good leader. And I'm so appreciative of my church experience, because so many people can look at an apple tree and say, oh, that's an apple because of the fruit that it bears. But not a lot of people can look at a seed and determine what kind of fruit that it can bear.
And so I think, as you're navigating your own church in your own context, I think you need to look at the seeds that God has placed within your life, and ask him like, what is the fruit that I can cultivate out of this person? How can I tend to them and develop their capacity?
Felix Amenumey: Thank you so much Yosef for the time, and I very much appreciate what you're doing. Thank God for your life. And a question I have is, you mentioned earlier on that the first generation church created space for you. Especially, you went under the youth pastor and they created space for you. Did you feel belonging? Because eventually, even though you were worshiping or fellowshipping in the basement, you ended up moving completely. Now I'm not against moving completely, but how do you either incorporate or reject some of the values in your new setup?
Yosef Zenebe: I think unfortunately at this time, like we don't in the Ethiopian church, we have a relationship with them, we have some conversation with them, but I think that was part of the frustration. Yes, they wanted an English service, but it could never be a church plant, because one of the big things was their refusal to change the name. I think in all honesty, if it had a different name or had given our leadership the ability to be a part of the leadership as well, I can see models and examples where that could flourish.
But I think one of the things that they were focused on was that this is Ethiopian Evangelical Church and so we will never reconsider the name. And so I remember even, friends from other cultures and backgrounds that wanted to be a part of the church, there was always a frustration of like, I don't belong here.
And so it's hard to get buy-in from people outside of that church model when that Ethiopian identity makes it very difficult for you to be missional. One of the ways that we've kind of helped the Ethiopian churches, one of the guys that we've discipled, was on the teaching rotation of our church.
We actually encouraged him because he was thinking about taking on more responsibility. We told him like, Hey, you should go and be the youth pastor at the Ethiopian church that we planted from. And so we still have a great relationship with him. We still have a great relationship with his youth group in the second generation and that pipeline to continue.
Unfortunately, I don't really see a future where the Ethiopian Church and Perazim Church are gonna be hand in hand. I think our, our vision and the people and our calling are very different.
Felix Amenumey: And another second question I also have is, you had a cohort for the preachers and speakers, how do you go about it? Do you just go by your own experience? Do you have material that you share with them?
Yosef Zenebe: I think it was a crash course in preaching and teaching. We did create our own materials that we shared with them. Like how do we read the Bible? How do we look for application? How do we preach the gospel every time?
Most of how they learned how to preach is just through an example. Like sometimes you hear, this is how this person also preaches, and how we break down the text, and so the crash course was more like, hey, let's create a formal structure for them to understand. What we are actually doing when we're going into the scriptures.
Because you know, Ebenezer went to Northwestern, which is a Christian college, but he minored in Bible. It was mostly psychology. And me, I don't have any formal structure or like teaching. I didn't go to seminary as well. So a lot of it is just self-taught.
And so the things that we've experienced, the things that we value, the speakers that we really look up to and we've learned a lot from, we share that with them in terms of how to go about getting to a good sermon, presentation, body language, all of that.
And so that's one way we've raised up young leaders to start preaching and teaching. We start, we give them small responsibilities. Like first maybe they have to lead a Bible study or a worship night. You know, we encourage them, like give them a short five to ten minute exhortation just to kind of get them ready and prepared.
John Yoder: And I'd like to ask a follow up question. One of the biggest questions in terms of second gen English ministry is, do we launch a separate English or bilingual service, or do we release them to be a daughter church? Which is what happened for you.
I don't wanna argue for one versus the other, as in there's a right and wrong. There's not. But for first gen, it's even scarier to turn second gen loose, you know, where politically there's no responsibility to the board of elders. If you remain that second service, how much empowerment do you have? What thoughts, what experience do you have of that tension between launching a second English or bilingual service versus planting a daughter church?
Yosef Zenebe: I think in our experience, we basically had to leave that first generation church and not be able to be like an English service within them.
I think in my heart, though, I wish like we were able to be just a second service and be represented within the leadership team. I think if our elders could be a part of the board of elders, and they didnā€™t constantly look at us like children, and treat us like kids and kind of like, oh, go do your little church service. I don't think we were ever genuinely empowered.
And I get it. They saw us growing up. You know, a lot of the people and elders of the church knew me ever since I was in elementary school. And it was very difficult for them to respect us and honor us as leaders who have a voice.
And so we were never really given space or platform within the church structure for us to be an English service. Because right now, weā€™re just meeting with within American churches, partnering with them and paying rent, and having our own autonomy and structure. But I feel like more respected by outside churches than we are from our own sending church, which is very unfortunate.
But I think the best model would be having an English service and the leaders of the English service being able to be represented within the leadership of the overall church, and that they have like equal say in the vision. And I think it's not necessarily that one model works or the other doesn't.
If both leaders have like a shared heart and a shared mission and shared values, and this is our goal to honor God and glorify God and be missional, and have everyone represented, I think either model works. Whether it's a pastoral leadership, an elder run church, those are semantics. I think if the heart is one, in any model the generation can thrive and God can be glorified. I think it's just sometimes when ethnic and generational pride gets in the way that it kind of hinders the very thing that God is trying to move.
John Yoder: EEC was a pretty large church, I wanna say 300 plus. So it had quite a good number of youth. What might you recommend to that ethnic pastor with 30 or 40 people who doesn't have the capacity to give birth to a daughter church?
Yosef Zenebe: If they have leaders in that second generation capacity, I think they have friends and they have community that they can invite and be empowered to lead. And so I don't, I don't think it matters.
'Cause sometimes, I've seen first generation churches where it's 30 or 40 people. But their second generation service is actually two times, three times bigger than that, because they have a larger pool of people that they can draw in from because of the context that they live in. And so I don't think the first generation being limited in size should affect the vision and capacity for the next generation.
John Yoder: Folks, I hope you really enjoyed the three-part interview that we had with Pastor Yosef. If you like that, next time we have an interview with Pastor Dema Pilipchuk. He was born in Belarus, came to the United States, was part of a Russian speaking church that later on launched a English language service. He is the lead pastor of that service.
And very similar to how Pastor Yosef shared with us how they reach second generation Ethiopians effectively with the gospel, you'll hear Pastor Dima share how to reach second generation Slavic people for the gospel, and you will learn a lot more similarities than differences in those two. Hope to see you then.
